Law v Grace Debate

Me: As Christians, why do we not celebrate Gods Holy days?

P1: AS jews you are obliged to honour the special Sabbaths that YHWH gave this nation SET APART under the old covenant.
AS a Christian one follows CHRIST ...
do you realize all that is stipulated under HIS NEW COVENANT first presented to the nation of Israel and then, when reject by all jews but a remnant, was offered to ALL NATIONS (i.e. gentiles)?

Me: Christ kept the Jewish holy days... So did the early believers.

P2: Christ had not yet nailed the written code to the Cross with his own body.

Me: Do we celebrate the 4th of July because it is the law, or because we want to? We could choose not to celebrate the 4th of July, sure. But as Christians, should we not choose to celebrate those days God has declared to be holy days? not because it is law, but because we do so to honor Him?

P2: Choose is the operative word here I believe. One no less honours the Lord who considers celebrating Christ instead.

P1: Jewish HOLY Days. holidays ... hmmm.
Are these and circumcision 'required' for gentiles entering the CHURCH that Jesus founded? Under His New Covenant.
Romans 2:29
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Colossians 2:16
[ Outward judgements ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

Mark 7:14
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.”

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.”
(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

Me: I think we do less honor the Lord when we ignore His holy days and yet practice pagan holidays like Halloween or Valentines, or desecrate the Passover with Babylonian traditions.

P2: to say following the Law honours God more than honouring the Spirit of freedom is exactly what is wrong with TO .

P1:  A circumcised heart considers these things ...
and gives HONOUR to YHWH our God in all things... if your feasting or fasting is not for your love of Jesus and the rest in YHWH then your actions are lost.
... no matter the public appearances of things.

Me: God did not give us a free will so that we could worship false Gods and ignore him. He gave us free will so that we could be free to choose God and His ways. It does not honor God to choose ways that are opposite of His.

P2: I worship Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Not the OT law nor a license to sin but Christ himself.

Me: "if your feasting or fasting is not for your love of Jesus and the rest in YHWH then your actions are lost."

That is exactly the point. You don't keep God's holy days as an obligation. You do so because you love the Lord and wish to honor Him in keeping of His holy days. How is it honoring to God though, when one worships pagan holy days or practices pagan ways that god says are an abomination to Him? It is the first commandment.

Me: "I worship Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Not the OT law nor a license to sin but Christ himself."

If you love me, keep my commands. didn't Jesus say that?

P1: Worshipping Jesus is not worship of false Gods or ignoring YHWH. When do you consider the New Covenant and what it means? Both to former jews and former gentile pagans?

P2: And what were those commandments Gerald? "To love the Lord with all our hearts ,soul ,strength and mind and to love thy neighbours` as thyself." Those are the commandments that all the Law and the Prophets hang on.If you wish to celebrate feast days by all means do so but do not judge others and find them pagan worshiping desecraters because they do not.

Me: I am not judging others. It appears that I am the one being judged for merely bringing up the fact that we should celebrate Gods Holy days. I do have to question the wisdom of those who would chase after easter eggs and dress their kids up a demons to get candy or other such nonsense has any part in Christian practice. I know many Christians who partake in those ungodly practices and still try to claim they are "following Jesus".

P1: As Paul says and I repeat again:
Colossians 2:16
[ Outward judgements ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

Me: That freedom is not so that we can go worship false gods and practice their ways and still call ourselves godly. Romans 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Is your argument that we can partake in pagan practices and still call ourselves believers? Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

P2: Gerald the only one bringing up Easter and Halloween is you. All I have said is those who do not follow OT feasts love the Lord as much as those who do. If you view disagreement as judgment so be it. This is a discussion group right? What I`m saying is that you are labeling those who are not TO as partakers in unholy practices without even knowing them. That sounds a lot more like judgment to me.

Me: That was not all you said. First you immediately equated law keeping in regards to my question about keeping Gods Holy days. Then on that straw man proceeded to say the Holy days were not needed, accused me of judging, and labeled me with a TO tag. ON that strawman of labeling me TO you proceed to accuse me of judging by the law. THAT sounds like judgment to me. I bring up Easter and Halloween as support for the case I am making and am accused of judging for that too. What is it you have against God's Holy days that you feel that we should not honor them?

P2: Please re-read my posts.I can see we are not going to be able to reach an amicable disagreement so God bless you.

P1: What do you see Paul saying here Gerald Davis?:
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

... how does this relate to Jesus and the New Covenant.
... in your understanding of scriptures?
... and what Jesus did for us who are part of His Body.
... as opposed to being Gentile (pagans) or Israelite (law-keepers)

Me: What it is saying is that you are not judged for salvation by a keeping of those things. It does not say that we should not do those things though. Are we to say that since Christ died on the cross we can now steal, covet, lie? Of course not. Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus even said at the last supper, do this in remembrance of me. do what? eat wafers and have a shot of wine? No. they were having Passover. We are to keep Passover in remembrance of Jesus, not chase after easter eggs and eat chocolate bunnies.

Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If we are dead to disobedience, how can we live any longer in disobedience? We were set free from disobedience so that we could be obedient through the power of the Holy spirit.

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

We now have the ability to be obedient, having been freed from our disobedient nature.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

P1: It seems you are still focused on what Paul is NOT SAYING rather than what Paul is telling us. As most people keen on the LAW focus on ... even those with NO HEBRAIC or jewish roots.
Colossians 2:17
"These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

... Paul's focus is centered on this, Jesus.
... not on being jewish or alternately practising pagan 'holidays'
... is easter celebrations (holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday) about something other than Christ ... in your understanding of the practises of the Church even today?
... because I do not see the 'shadowy' past but only the remembrance of Jesus today. As clearly as seeing that HE is present NOW and forever ... in the church where I worship Him.

Me: the problem you are having is that you are too afraid of "the law" and "being under it". All of the verses I quoted were focused on Jesus, not on law. Your argument seems to say that we are free to disobey God. I say nay, not free to disobey, but set free from disobedience so that we might be able to be obedient unto God through the power of the Holy Spirit sent unto us through our belief in the saving power of Jesus Christ our Lord.

I cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

What is this verse saying? Is this a "new law"? No. Paul is teaching from the old law. God hasn't changed. His standards are not different. You cannot do these things and still call yourself a Christian and expect to be covered.

I know that many in grace like to quote verse 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. But in light of the previous verses, it seems to temper it some. Is it a contradiction to say all things are lawful and yet to have just said that list of people will not enter heaven? Paul also qualifies further: 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. But, I thought Paul said it was lawful? Or did he say fornicators will not enter the kingdom? Our conduct matters. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Does it glorify God to chase after easter eggs? Does it glorify God to dress up as little demons and go beg for candy? Does it glorify God to hope a fat man in a red suit brings us presents? Does it glorify God to promote that some false god runs around shooting people with love arrows?

Does it dishonor God in any way to recognize His Holy Days?

P1: I always find it amusing when people 'assume' I am having a 'problem' with something Jesus or His disciples are saying ... after quoting EXACTLY what Jesus and his disciples are saying. (Much to the chagrin ... of friends like you ... my friend)
... again, which LAW did Jesus put me under?
... that of HIS New Covenant?
... or that of HIS Old Covenant with my jewish spiritual relatives? (and their forefather of course)
... Gerald Davis?
... does Paul give you any clues or do you have to go to the writer of Hebrews (chapter 8 might help you)

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he (Jesus) has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
 

P2: The assumption that if one is not TO they are a lawless,rampaging sinner is incorrect and unsubstantiated. Being fully cognizant of what Paul is teaching that those under grace are not given a license to sin ,those who love the Lord under the new covenant worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Me:  It seems the two of you are the ones doing the assuming here.  Just at the mere suggestion that we, God forbid , do something the Lord says we should do is somehow going to destroy your relationship to Jesus seems, to me, a bit preposterous.  When it comes to something like honoring God on His holy days, you fight tooth and nail against it, arguing that we are not under law, but at the same time, I see christians all over these pages use law when they want to talk about homosexuality being a sin, for example.  If the law is done away with, as you say, and we need not follow it, as you say, then how are we to say that anything is sin?  You seem to be removing the very foundation for moral conduct right out from underneath us. 

Consider Romans 7.  Paul starts out how we are dead to the law, but that death is in the penalty of the law.  In verse 7 Paul says, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.  The law isn’t the sin, and certainly celebrating God’s Holy Days are not sin.  Verse 12 Paul says. ¹² Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.  Yet somehow we now esteem the law as a bad thing to be avoided?  Nay, v13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.  It wasn’t the law that was sin, it was the breaking of the law.  The law just brought that to knowledge.  Paul goes on in v22 saying,  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:  If the law is so bad and to be shunned, why is Paul saying he delights in it?  The law does not save, nor did it ever.  It is the standard of god though, and should we not strive towards that goal?

P3: Ephesians 5:22-23, says that those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have NO law! Why? When you're led by the Holy Spirit he will lead you to ALL righteousness. So there is no worry about following a particular law or committing sin, because you are being led by the Spirit of God.

P2: The law remains as a tutor to bring unbelievers to Christ.For those who are believers turning back to the law Paul says this "How is it you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things to which you desire to be enslaved all over again.: Gal 1:16 " I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ,for a different gospel." Gal 3:2,3 "Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit,are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

Me: Galatians 3:²¹ Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.  You all act as if the law is against God, and here Paul clearly states that it is not.  The assumption and fear people have concerning Holy Days or Sabbath is that it somehow takes them out of grace.  God forbid.  It is by grace through faith that we are able to act in a righteous manner.    Look at what James says : ⁷ Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
¹⁸ Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
²⁴ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
²⁵ Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What we do is still an integral part of who we are as believers.  Celebrating God’s holy days is not done for reason of salvation, but as evidence of salvation.  What sort of evidence do we have of our love for God if we are not doing things the Lord has said do and shunning things the Lord has said not to do?  Are we showing our faith in God by practicing the rituals of pagans and celebrating mans holidays only, yet ignoring days God has said we should honor?  If obedience is not the outcome of faith, isn’t our faith of no account then?  A tree is known by its fruit, right? 

P3: Galatians 5:22-23, says that those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have NO law! Why? When you're led by the Holy Spirit he will lead you to ALL righteousness. So there is no worry about following a particular law or committing sin, because you are being led by the Spirit of God.

Me: Ok, go back a couple verses, 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

What are these? We are not free to do these things.  We were freed FROM these things so that we can do what you had mentioned, be led by the spirit into righteousness.  The law is not unrighteousness.  The law exposes unrighteousness by being the standard of righteousness.  We are not saved by keeping the law, but the laws themselves are not sin.  By the Spirit, we are empowered to do those things that are in the law.  The Spirit will not lead us to practice pagan rituals or lead us to honor holy days of false gods.

P3: Those laws that God gave Moses were only for the nation of Israel! It was not for Gentiles! Therefore, Gentiles NEVER were given the Law to follow. The end of the LAW is Jesus! Since the end of the LAW is Jesus, what does Jesus say about what we as Christians are suppose to do? Jesus said nothing about us following the Law of Moses. If you read and study Acts 15, you will find that the Gentiles were instructed by the apostles not to follow the Law of Moses!

Me: So, then, by your reckoning, is it ok to murder someone?  Is it ok then to defraud someone?  It is still wrong to be a fornicator or an idolator.  When Cain slew his brother Abel, it was still a sin, even without the law of Moses.  We still, even after acts 15, see Paul writing to the gentile churches with lists of things that will exclude you from entering the kingdom. 

What says these verses? Eph 2: ⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.
¹⁰ For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by works, but created in Christ jesus UNTO good works.  We were set free from the penalty of the law not so we could disobey, but so that through Jesus we can walk in them.  We are not justified by works, but are justified so that we may do good works. 

P2: it is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation with you when you ignore the position of the other party even when you have been corrected more than once. Those who are under the NT covenant of grace are not the lawless,pagan rabble- rousers that you keep painting them to be.Until you can acknowledge that there`s not much point in trying to discuss this with you.

Me:  By “reasonable conversation” do you mean that I have to agree with you?  IF you had been paying attention to what I am posting, you would see I am not calling grace lawlessness.  IF you had been paying attention you would have seen how several times now I have said that we are saved by grace.  But, we are not saved by grace to do any old thing we want.  1 Corinthians 6:20

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

As I just showed in Ephesians 2:10, we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, not FROM good works.

In 2 Cor 10: ⁵ Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 

Again I also refer back to the verses in james I posted, faith without works is dead.  Our lives should be a living witness of the Lord, and that is done not through doing ungodly things, but by doing things that are righteous.  And we do not do those things of our own power, or we would have someplace to boast about, but it is through the power of God living in us and through us that we are to be submitted to. Again as it says in James, it is not grace alone, or works alone, but the two working together.

P3: you have to follow and listen to Jesus not Moses! How hard is that? Is it asking too much to listen to Jesus? Moses said thou shall not commit adultery! Jesus said, "you have heard of them from old thou shall not commit adultery, but I say, he that looks on a woman and lusts thereafter hath committed adultery in his heart already." So the Law of Christ is much deeper and powerful than the Law given by Moses. Why? The law of Christ purpose is to eradicate (pull sin up from its root) sin. That was not the purpose of the Law of Moses! The law that Moses was to identify sin, and to keep one from sin. Even then gentiles did not have the Law of Moses! That why when Jesus appeared, the Gentiles were not taught the Law, but were taught Jesus! Why? Jesus is the end of the Law! That is, the Law leads you to the teacher Jesus Christ! The tutor teaches you what the teacher is teaching until understanding. Then the student learns from the teacher!

Me:  Did you bother even reading what I said?  The scriptures I quoted?  Have I once advocated following Moses?  When you mention Jesus teaching on one of the commandments, did Jesus say, never mind that one?  No. He established it.  Not only did he establish it, he made it even greater in establishment by applying it to the thought life and not just the actual physical act.  And what does scriptures say of the gentiles?  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  Romans 2:14.  Why? 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)  God has written it upon our hearts so that we are without excuse.  Now that we know that the law of God is written on our hearts, that we were set free from sin to do good works because we were bought with a price and are to subject ourselves to the will of God, that we know that faith without works is dead, why is it such a hard thing to step away from worldy pagan holy days and rituals, and do the ones God has called us to do? 

2 Corinthians 6:
¹⁴ Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

¹⁵ And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

¹⁶ And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

¹⁷ Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

¹⁸ And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.