A little study time- thinking on page.
Proverbs 28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.
Forsake- azab (aw-zab')
A primitive root; to loosen, that is, relinquish, permit,
commit self, fail, forsake, fortify, help, leave (destitute, off), refuse, X surely.
Relinquish seems to be the best context here... could use forsake as well.
They that relinquish the law, they that forsake the law
Law- tôrâh (to-raw', to-raw') - a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
They that relinquish or forsake the Torah...
We seem to run into a major question mark here at this point... Does the word Torah speak of the Decalogue, the 10 commandments, or of the Pentateuch, the law of Moses? This question is critical in understanding and would have a vast difference in meaning.
In Simeon's Horae Homileticae DISCOURSE: 814 we see some principles laid out concerning this forsaking. In summary it would be these:
1. That obedience to God’s Law is unnecessary—
He will acknowledge the Scriptures to be a revelation from God; and would be greatly offended, if his belief in that revelation were questioned. But his faith in it is nothing more than a speculative assent: he regards not the authority of God in it; and by his contempt of that authority he says, in fact, that a submission to it is unnecessary.
2. That not even the Gospel itself entails any obligation upon us—
Many who profess to believe the Gospel, and to make it the ground of their hope towards God, yet feel no constraining influence from all its wonders of love and mercy. They practically say, ‘True, the Lord Jesus Christ came into the world, and “died the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God
3. That the way of wickedness is preferable as it respects this present world—
Finding pleasure only in the things of time and sense himself, he encourages the same taste in others. For, for what end “has God given us all things richly to enjoy,” if we are not to enjoy them? As for a compliance with the precepts of the Law, it is obvious that it must require continual self-denial: and what happiness can there be in that?
4. That no evil is to be apprehended from it in the world to come—
This necessarily follows from all the rest: for, if he really thought that God would execute his threatenings against the violators of the Law, he would be more attentive to his own ways. But he persuades himself, that God is too merciful to punish any one in the eternal world, or, at all events, for such slight offences as he commits: and, by his open contempt of God’s threatened judgments, he says to all around him, that they have nothing to fear, since “the Lord will do neither good nor evil
These are 4 fairly common grounds upon which law is relinquished or forsaken, but still we are asked, which law? The 10 commandments? or the law of Moses. Torah, in the general sense does not give an indication. It is used interchangeavly. This is why it may be confusing to some people. Some feel that the entire law of Moses is to be followed if one is saved, and would point to a verse such as John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments as a verse that says we need to keep the law of Moses. The greek word used entolē injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept. We see here a focus on "commandment" Would a different word be used in greek if the law of Moses were meant?
Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. The word for law used here is nomos. law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), generally (regulation), specifically (of Moses [including the volume]; also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle): - law. So we see here that if the law of Moses is mentioned, a different Greek word is used than in Jesus previous command to keep His commandments. Keeping His commandments is the keeping of the 10 commandments, not the law of Moses.
Christ in John 13:34 gives us a new commandment. "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another." In Romans 13:8,10 and Galatians 5:14 we see that this command to love fulfills the nomos, which could be the entire law of Moses, but Paul here in Romans 13:9 clarifies and goes through the list of the 10 commandments pertaining to loving others. We can assume by context that Paul refers to the 10 commandments.
Mathew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
On these two entole hang all of the nomos. All of the law of Moses is fulfilled in these two commandments of Jesus.
Collossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Wee see here another word used, the word for ordinances in Greek is dogma - a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.
What can we conclude from this? That Love of God and neighbor fulfills the requirements of the law and are the commands we are to follow when Jesus says to keep His commandments. That the law is not "done away with", but, that we are freed from the judgment of the law that we are sinners worthy of death. But, Do we keep the law of Moses? Or the 10 commandment? Paul seems to make it clear that love keeps the 10 commandments and the law of Moses.
Romans 8: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The law of the spirit of life as we saw is to love God, love the son, love your neighbor (spirit). The law of sin and death is the law of Moses (flesh). The law could not save us from our transgressions. It could only condemn us and make known to us our sinful nature. When we try to keep the law of Moses, we are working in the flesh. When we keep the law of love, we are operating in the spirit.
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
If we focus on the law of love, Love God, Love the son, Love others, we will do well.
I John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Showing posts with label law. Show all posts
Showing posts with label law. Show all posts
2015/01/29
2015/01/27
2014/12/24
It's Bacon!
The other day at my job, we had a holiday dinner at work. Among the items served were, ham, beans with bacon, and green bean casserole with bacon. For someone trying to cut out the pork products, that left me with the au graten potatoes, the dinner rolls, and the desert dishes.
In a large setting you will always then end up with someone saying, "Aren't you having any ham? It is so good!" Followed by them trying to throw a big piece on your plate. Then you explain that you are not eating pork and everyone suddenly kind of slides away from you at the break table. They kind of get this, "oh, you are one of those" looks.
Seriously, If you are someone who has ever tried just dieting, you can have a hard time finding foods that will fit your diet. But, you don't really notice that much until you start looking. Going kosher is the same way. Until you start making a conscious effort to do so, you just don't realize how many "unclean" foods we are being fed, and how much promotion goes into getting you to eat pig.
Have you ever tried going out to eat for breakfast trying to avoid pork? You almost can't do it. Bacon or sausage is the standard with nearly every meal. Seriously, try it some time. At McDonald's, for example, there are very few options that don't include pork. A number of the small amount of items you can get are not even listed on the menu. It's a secret menu item that you have to request. Even the cashier are often unaware of them and have to call a manager to find it on the register.
It seems in the last few years, promotion of pork, especially bacon, has gone hog wild. (pun intended). I seem to recall this first with the old commercial with the dog screaming, "IT'S BACON!!!!" I think we people have gotten trained that way. There are now bacon products for almost anything. Bacon hot dogs, milk shakes, even edible bowls made of bacon that you can eat after you have consumed whatever it was (probably with bacon in it) in the bowl.
People just seem to want to pig out on bacon. (I know, another pun). If you have a Facebook page, you can't escape people posting ridiculous bacon pictures of bacon wrapped in bacon deep fried in bacon grease, or some such thing. It really has become a weird obsession with people; an addiction even.
Even Christians are in on this. You will get a HUGE argument ending in being called a heretic and a false teacher if you happen to point out that the Bible says we should not eat pork. That is one of the hottest no no's in all of Christendom it seems to say that God might want us to have a "clean" diet. So many believers are stubbornly unwilling to give up anything they want as an act of service to God. Our religion has become self centered and not God centric. God serves us and we can do whatever we want is the easy believism cheap grace taught in many pulpits today.
No, choosing to eat kosher is not putting you or anyone else under the law. No one is going to be dragging anyone to the edge of town and stoning them for disobeying God's and national law. No one is going to hell, per se, for eating bacon. But, there are consequences for our actions.
One of those consequences is our health. How can anyone argue against God's diet as being the best one for us to live our days healthy? Is anyone going to say God is wrong on His choice of diet that He would like us to consume? Paul puts it this way, Is the law sin? God forbid, for I would not have know sin if it were not for the law. and John describes sin as being, "transgression of the law". The kosher diet is the right one for believers, whether they want to admit it or not, or follow it or not.
The real question for believers is this, why are so many believers stubbornly opposed to what God has laid out for us to do? The bible was fairly clear on this point that as a human, we are a stiff-necked and rebellious people. There is none that seeks good. We all want to do what is right in our own eyes, not God's. It is our nature.
We have to be willing to and consciously submit our will to Gods each and every day, and on constant guard. It is an act of praise and worship to be obedient to the most high. It is putting God in his proper place in our lives when we submit ourselves to His ways and put aside our desires. Is it easy? No. But, we have a helper residing in us when we are saved that will help us along the path of righteousness if we are willing to submit.
Pork is not a need. It is a want. It is a desire. When we put that want ahead of what God wants, we turn that desire into an idol. With our actions, words and posts, we set up bacon as a false God to whom we are more willing to submit to than the Lord out God. It is time we start paying attention to what God wants, and doing what God says we should do. One can argue all they want about the "law", but when you look back before the "law" you see Noah loading animals based on clean and unclean standards set by God. Something to consider.
In a large setting you will always then end up with someone saying, "Aren't you having any ham? It is so good!" Followed by them trying to throw a big piece on your plate. Then you explain that you are not eating pork and everyone suddenly kind of slides away from you at the break table. They kind of get this, "oh, you are one of those" looks.
Seriously, If you are someone who has ever tried just dieting, you can have a hard time finding foods that will fit your diet. But, you don't really notice that much until you start looking. Going kosher is the same way. Until you start making a conscious effort to do so, you just don't realize how many "unclean" foods we are being fed, and how much promotion goes into getting you to eat pig.
Have you ever tried going out to eat for breakfast trying to avoid pork? You almost can't do it. Bacon or sausage is the standard with nearly every meal. Seriously, try it some time. At McDonald's, for example, there are very few options that don't include pork. A number of the small amount of items you can get are not even listed on the menu. It's a secret menu item that you have to request. Even the cashier are often unaware of them and have to call a manager to find it on the register.
It seems in the last few years, promotion of pork, especially bacon, has gone hog wild. (pun intended). I seem to recall this first with the old commercial with the dog screaming, "IT'S BACON!!!!" I think we people have gotten trained that way. There are now bacon products for almost anything. Bacon hot dogs, milk shakes, even edible bowls made of bacon that you can eat after you have consumed whatever it was (probably with bacon in it) in the bowl.
People just seem to want to pig out on bacon. (I know, another pun). If you have a Facebook page, you can't escape people posting ridiculous bacon pictures of bacon wrapped in bacon deep fried in bacon grease, or some such thing. It really has become a weird obsession with people; an addiction even.
Even Christians are in on this. You will get a HUGE argument ending in being called a heretic and a false teacher if you happen to point out that the Bible says we should not eat pork. That is one of the hottest no no's in all of Christendom it seems to say that God might want us to have a "clean" diet. So many believers are stubbornly unwilling to give up anything they want as an act of service to God. Our religion has become self centered and not God centric. God serves us and we can do whatever we want is the easy believism cheap grace taught in many pulpits today.
No, choosing to eat kosher is not putting you or anyone else under the law. No one is going to be dragging anyone to the edge of town and stoning them for disobeying God's and national law. No one is going to hell, per se, for eating bacon. But, there are consequences for our actions.
One of those consequences is our health. How can anyone argue against God's diet as being the best one for us to live our days healthy? Is anyone going to say God is wrong on His choice of diet that He would like us to consume? Paul puts it this way, Is the law sin? God forbid, for I would not have know sin if it were not for the law. and John describes sin as being, "transgression of the law". The kosher diet is the right one for believers, whether they want to admit it or not, or follow it or not.
The real question for believers is this, why are so many believers stubbornly opposed to what God has laid out for us to do? The bible was fairly clear on this point that as a human, we are a stiff-necked and rebellious people. There is none that seeks good. We all want to do what is right in our own eyes, not God's. It is our nature.
We have to be willing to and consciously submit our will to Gods each and every day, and on constant guard. It is an act of praise and worship to be obedient to the most high. It is putting God in his proper place in our lives when we submit ourselves to His ways and put aside our desires. Is it easy? No. But, we have a helper residing in us when we are saved that will help us along the path of righteousness if we are willing to submit.
Pork is not a need. It is a want. It is a desire. When we put that want ahead of what God wants, we turn that desire into an idol. With our actions, words and posts, we set up bacon as a false God to whom we are more willing to submit to than the Lord out God. It is time we start paying attention to what God wants, and doing what God says we should do. One can argue all they want about the "law", but when you look back before the "law" you see Noah loading animals based on clean and unclean standards set by God. Something to consider.
2014/10/15
Ebola and Torah Observance
In the Bible are many rules for how we ought to live our lives. Some of these rules are extremely practical and were years ahead of science in the effectiveness of what they accomplished. Many of these rules are forgotten or ignored today. We are told that we no longer have to follow those old rules because they have been done away with or that we are no longer "under" them. I say in this time it might be important to look at and consider following some of them. It may not be for your eternal salvation, but it may be for salvation in this life.
By now, I think most people have heard of Ebola and have seen it spread first in Africa, and now to various other countries including the United States. This is a very serious deisease and despite the taking of some precautions, has spread to others who have been in contact with still others. Whatever the reasons given for this spread, and the mutations possible, mistakes, etc... I would argue that it comes down to this, people do not know and are not following the laws of God.
There were many rules about clean and unclean things. People with diseases were set apart from the camp. Women when menstruating were unclean. Anyone who touched a dead person or animal was unclean. All soldiers had to have a shovel so they could bury their human waste. Washing of hands, keeping storehouses clean, and other such ideas were all contained in Jewish law and tradition given to them by God. If we look at how the Ebola and other diseases are spread, following Torah rules would help in preventing the spread.
Isolation seems to be a key ingredient to holding down the spread of disease, biblically. For many reasons folks would have to separate themselves from the community when they were "unclean". They would also have to be inspected before they could return to the community as "clean". We seem to be ignoring this during this Ebola outbreak and have even seen leaders say that such isolation would be "inhumane". Inhumane? It only makes sense, but I guess if you do not follow God, anything is OK.
During the middle ages when the black plague pandemic killed of huge populations in Europe, there was one particular group of people who were far less effected by the plague than everyone else. It was the Jewish people. It was precisely because of their observance of Torah that allowed them to survive in greater numbers where others perished. It was their laws of clean living that prevented them from having the conditions present for the spread of the disease in the Jewish communities. As a result, they became economic powerhouses and gained the wealth that the dying had left. Because of their survival, the remaining who survived blamed the Jews and accused them of poisoning the water to take control of the countries. They were then expelled from the nations, or faced death.
If this Ebola grows into a pandemic, it may be those very laws in the Torah that allow you to survive. Keeping yourself clean, you area clean, and if society won't isolate the sick, we may have to isolate ourselves.
Even if Ebola does not grow into a pandemic, living this way will certainly keep you healthy and help you to live rather disease free, for the most part. It is a promise from God. And if that is not enough, all of it is verified by the science we know about. While we are not saved spiritually by looking to observance of the law, observing the law can save you. It might be time to take another look at the law and what it says.
Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.
Psalm 91 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
By now, I think most people have heard of Ebola and have seen it spread first in Africa, and now to various other countries including the United States. This is a very serious deisease and despite the taking of some precautions, has spread to others who have been in contact with still others. Whatever the reasons given for this spread, and the mutations possible, mistakes, etc... I would argue that it comes down to this, people do not know and are not following the laws of God.
There were many rules about clean and unclean things. People with diseases were set apart from the camp. Women when menstruating were unclean. Anyone who touched a dead person or animal was unclean. All soldiers had to have a shovel so they could bury their human waste. Washing of hands, keeping storehouses clean, and other such ideas were all contained in Jewish law and tradition given to them by God. If we look at how the Ebola and other diseases are spread, following Torah rules would help in preventing the spread.
Isolation seems to be a key ingredient to holding down the spread of disease, biblically. For many reasons folks would have to separate themselves from the community when they were "unclean". They would also have to be inspected before they could return to the community as "clean". We seem to be ignoring this during this Ebola outbreak and have even seen leaders say that such isolation would be "inhumane". Inhumane? It only makes sense, but I guess if you do not follow God, anything is OK.
During the middle ages when the black plague pandemic killed of huge populations in Europe, there was one particular group of people who were far less effected by the plague than everyone else. It was the Jewish people. It was precisely because of their observance of Torah that allowed them to survive in greater numbers where others perished. It was their laws of clean living that prevented them from having the conditions present for the spread of the disease in the Jewish communities. As a result, they became economic powerhouses and gained the wealth that the dying had left. Because of their survival, the remaining who survived blamed the Jews and accused them of poisoning the water to take control of the countries. They were then expelled from the nations, or faced death.
If this Ebola grows into a pandemic, it may be those very laws in the Torah that allow you to survive. Keeping yourself clean, you area clean, and if society won't isolate the sick, we may have to isolate ourselves.
Even if Ebola does not grow into a pandemic, living this way will certainly keep you healthy and help you to live rather disease free, for the most part. It is a promise from God. And if that is not enough, all of it is verified by the science we know about. While we are not saved spiritually by looking to observance of the law, observing the law can save you. It might be time to take another look at the law and what it says.
Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.
Psalm 91 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
2014/02/19
Does the Church have it Backwards?
Colossians 2: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Most of the time when people use this verse, they are generally making the case that we are no longer under the law, that the law has been done away with, and that we therefore no longer have to be obedient to what God has said through the law. But, is this what the passage is really saying?
I propose that it may be saying just the opposite of what most people use it for. It may just be saying to let no man judge you for KEEPING the Sabbath and FOLLOWING the dietary commands, or using the Jewish calendar to denote holy days and keeping them. Some of the biggest debates in Christendom surround the idea that we need to be obedient to the whole Bible.
Many Christians today have been taught that they no longer have to do what the bible says to do because certain parts of the Bible have been done away with. Is this so? Christians often use the previous verses to substantiate their claims.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
The argument is that the OT laws
were blotted out. The truth is, what was
blotted out was the penalty for violation of Gods commands. Jesus himself said, Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
That fulfilling was His substitutionary death in our stead. In no way were any of Gods commands declared
null and void.
this easy believism and grace without responsibility is what has watered down the churches message. It has destroyed the witness of Christians. Rather than being separated from the world through obedience to God, the church has become part of the world, nearly indistinguishable from unbelievers. The rates of sin within the church are just as high, if not higher, than outside.
There is no more fear of Yahweh in believers any longer. The salt has lost its savor and is being trodden under foot. Every vestige of our heritage as Christians is being removed from society. Over the last 50 years God has been removed from nearly every institution. Where have the Christians been?
Believers! It is time to repent and return unto the way of the Lord. Time is short and the harvest is ripe. Turn away from the lie of grace as a license and do as thou wilt churchianity. It is time to submit yourself to do what God has commanded you to do. We serve a might God, not the other way around. God is not our magic genie to make us feel all warm and fuzzy and give us the things we want. We are His servants who are to do as HE commands of us. Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
2014/01/05
Loving or Judging?
I John3: 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
These verses were presented in an article I read this week. At first it disturbed me a little. The author was saying essentially that if you sin, you are not saved because if you were saved, you would not sin. This is really a disturbing message for many Christians. At least to me it was disturbing. Why? Because we all still sin.
The argument then goes, “they will continue to sin but they won’t make a pattern of it, but if a person continues to sin, then they were never saved in the first place.” If that were the case; if everyone who was truly saved was not even capable of sinning, then why would John write earlier in chapter 1 on I John, v9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If a Christian never sins, what would they need to confess?
Now I am not arguing that a Christian can just go ahead and sin. Paul asks the question, Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (Romans 6:1) “God, forbid” was the answer. Much of Romans 6 continues about how we are dead to sin and won’t continue therein. But in verse 7 we find out that we still do sin, even intentionally, knowingly, willfully.
Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So what of the I John 3 verses? They seem to say we won’t sin if we are truly saved. Don’t they contradict what Paul is saying here in Romans? Not at all. Look at verse 15 of Romans 7; but what I hate, that do I. Often a Christian will sin, even willingly and knowingly, but the pleasure of it is not there. A Christian will feel guilty. They will feel remorse, sorrow in their sin. They will recognize the wrong. Going back to I John 1:9, we will confess our sins and be forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.
The key to what is being talked about in Chapter 3 is the condition of the heart. If one is sinning, and they enjoy it, feel no remorse over it, and plan to do it again for their own amusement, then we could say that they would not be abiding in Christ. Such a person would also have no desire to do what God says is right. They will create for themselves a God that excuses their behavior. A God of love who doesn’t condemn anyone.
I write about this because I want to encourage others. Young believers especially can have their faith shaken by such proclamations as Christians won’t ever sin if they are true Christians. Immediately they begin to doubt their salvation because it is impossible for us to live sinless, even after being saved. The real danger is when we no longer or don’t even care if our actions are sinful or not.
We as believers also have to remember what Jesus taught, Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Mathew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
We would do much better loving one another.
2013/09/27
Law v Grace Debate
Me:
As Christians, why do we not celebrate Gods Holy days?
P1: AS jews you are obliged to honour the special Sabbaths that YHWH gave this nation SET APART under the old covenant.
AS a Christian one follows CHRIST ...
do you realize all that is stipulated under HIS NEW COVENANT first presented to the nation of Israel and then, when reject by all jews but a remnant, was offered to ALL NATIONS (i.e. gentiles)?
Me: Christ kept the Jewish holy days... So did the early believers.
P2: Christ had not yet nailed the written code to the Cross with his own body.
Me: Do we celebrate the 4th of July because it is the law, or because we want to? We could choose not to celebrate the 4th of July, sure. But as Christians, should we not choose to celebrate those days God has declared to be holy days? not because it is law, but because we do so to honor Him?
P2: Choose is the operative word here I believe. One no less honours the Lord who considers celebrating Christ instead.
P1: Jewish HOLY Days. holidays ... hmmm.
Are these and circumcision 'required' for gentiles entering the CHURCH that Jesus founded? Under His New Covenant.
Romans 2:29
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Colossians 2:16
[ Outward judgements ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Mark 7:14
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.”
(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
Me: I think we do less honor the Lord when we ignore His holy days and yet practice pagan holidays like Halloween or Valentines, or desecrate the Passover with Babylonian traditions.
P2: to say following the Law honours God more than honouring the Spirit of freedom is exactly what is wrong with TO .
P1: A circumcised heart considers these things ...
and gives HONOUR to YHWH our God in all things... if your feasting or fasting is not for your love of Jesus and the rest in YHWH then your actions are lost.
... no matter the public appearances of things.
Me: God did not give us a free will so that we could worship false Gods and ignore him. He gave us free will so that we could be free to choose God and His ways. It does not honor God to choose ways that are opposite of His.
P2: I worship Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Not the OT law nor a license to sin but Christ himself.
Me: "if your feasting or fasting is not for your love of Jesus and the rest in YHWH then your actions are lost."
That is exactly the point. You don't keep God's holy days as an obligation. You do so because you love the Lord and wish to honor Him in keeping of His holy days. How is it honoring to God though, when one worships pagan holy days or practices pagan ways that god says are an abomination to Him? It is the first commandment.
Me: "I worship Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Not the OT law nor a license to sin but Christ himself."
If you love me, keep my commands. didn't Jesus say that?
P1: Worshipping Jesus is not worship of false Gods or ignoring YHWH. When do you consider the New Covenant and what it means? Both to former jews and former gentile pagans?
P2: And what were those commandments Gerald? "To love the Lord with all our hearts ,soul ,strength and mind and to love thy neighbours` as thyself." Those are the commandments that all the Law and the Prophets hang on.If you wish to celebrate feast days by all means do so but do not judge others and find them pagan worshiping desecraters because they do not.
Me: I am not judging others. It appears that I am the one being judged for merely bringing up the fact that we should celebrate Gods Holy days. I do have to question the wisdom of those who would chase after easter eggs and dress their kids up a demons to get candy or other such nonsense has any part in Christian practice. I know many Christians who partake in those ungodly practices and still try to claim they are "following Jesus".
P1: As Paul says and I repeat again:
Colossians 2:16
[ Outward judgements ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Me: That freedom is not so that we can go worship false gods and practice their ways and still call ourselves godly. Romans 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Is your argument that we can partake in pagan practices and still call ourselves believers? Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
P2: Gerald the only one bringing up Easter and Halloween is you. All I have said is those who do not follow OT feasts love the Lord as much as those who do. If you view disagreement as judgment so be it. This is a discussion group right? What I`m saying is that you are labeling those who are not TO as partakers in unholy practices without even knowing them. That sounds a lot more like judgment to me.
Me: That was not all you said. First you immediately equated law keeping in regards to my question about keeping Gods Holy days. Then on that straw man proceeded to say the Holy days were not needed, accused me of judging, and labeled me with a TO tag. ON that strawman of labeling me TO you proceed to accuse me of judging by the law. THAT sounds like judgment to me. I bring up Easter and Halloween as support for the case I am making and am accused of judging for that too. What is it you have against God's Holy days that you feel that we should not honor them?
P2: Please re-read my posts.I can see we are not going to be able to reach an amicable disagreement so God bless you.
P1: What do you see Paul saying here Gerald Davis?:
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
... how does this relate to Jesus and the New Covenant.
... in your understanding of scriptures?
... and what Jesus did for us who are part of His Body.
... as opposed to being Gentile (pagans) or Israelite (law-keepers)
Me: What it is saying is that you are not judged for salvation by a keeping of those things. It does not say that we should not do those things though. Are we to say that since Christ died on the cross we can now steal, covet, lie? Of course not. Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus even said at the last supper, do this in remembrance of me. do what? eat wafers and have a shot of wine? No. they were having Passover. We are to keep Passover in remembrance of Jesus, not chase after easter eggs and eat chocolate bunnies.
Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
If we are dead to disobedience, how can we live any longer in disobedience? We were set free from disobedience so that we could be obedient through the power of the Holy spirit.
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
We now have the ability to be obedient, having been freed from our disobedient nature.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
P1: It seems you are still focused on what Paul is NOT SAYING rather than what Paul is telling us. As most people keen on the LAW focus on ... even those with NO HEBRAIC or jewish roots.
Colossians 2:17
"These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."
... Paul's focus is centered on this, Jesus.
... not on being jewish or alternately practising pagan 'holidays'
... is easter celebrations (holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday) about something other than Christ ... in your understanding of the practises of the Church even today?
... because I do not see the 'shadowy' past but only the remembrance of Jesus today. As clearly as seeing that HE is present NOW and forever ... in the church where I worship Him.
Me: the problem you are having is that you are too afraid of "the law" and "being under it". All of the verses I quoted were focused on Jesus, not on law. Your argument seems to say that we are free to disobey God. I say nay, not free to disobey, but set free from disobedience so that we might be able to be obedient unto God through the power of the Holy Spirit sent unto us through our belief in the saving power of Jesus Christ our Lord.
I cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
What is this verse saying? Is this a "new law"? No. Paul is teaching from the old law. God hasn't changed. His standards are not different. You cannot do these things and still call yourself a Christian and expect to be covered.
I know that many in grace like to quote verse 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. But in light of the previous verses, it seems to temper it some. Is it a contradiction to say all things are lawful and yet to have just said that list of people will not enter heaven? Paul also qualifies further: 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. But, I thought Paul said it was lawful? Or did he say fornicators will not enter the kingdom? Our conduct matters. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Does it glorify God to chase after easter eggs? Does it glorify God to dress up as little demons and go beg for candy? Does it glorify God to hope a fat man in a red suit brings us presents? Does it glorify God to promote that some false god runs around shooting people with love arrows?
Does it dishonor God in any way to recognize His Holy Days?
P1: I always find it amusing when people 'assume' I am having a 'problem' with something Jesus or His disciples are saying ... after quoting EXACTLY what Jesus and his disciples are saying. (Much to the chagrin ... of friends like you ... my friend)
... again, which LAW did Jesus put me under?
... that of HIS New Covenant?
... or that of HIS Old Covenant with my jewish spiritual relatives? (and their forefather of course)
... Gerald Davis?
... does Paul give you any clues or do you have to go to the writer of Hebrews (chapter 8 might help you)
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he (Jesus) has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
P2: The assumption
that if one is not TO they are a lawless,rampaging sinner is incorrect and
unsubstantiated. Being fully cognizant of what Paul is teaching that those
under grace are not given a license to sin ,those who love the Lord under the
new covenant worship Him in Spirit and in truth. P1: AS jews you are obliged to honour the special Sabbaths that YHWH gave this nation SET APART under the old covenant.
AS a Christian one follows CHRIST ...
do you realize all that is stipulated under HIS NEW COVENANT first presented to the nation of Israel and then, when reject by all jews but a remnant, was offered to ALL NATIONS (i.e. gentiles)?
Me: Christ kept the Jewish holy days... So did the early believers.
P2: Christ had not yet nailed the written code to the Cross with his own body.
Me: Do we celebrate the 4th of July because it is the law, or because we want to? We could choose not to celebrate the 4th of July, sure. But as Christians, should we not choose to celebrate those days God has declared to be holy days? not because it is law, but because we do so to honor Him?
P2: Choose is the operative word here I believe. One no less honours the Lord who considers celebrating Christ instead.
P1: Jewish HOLY Days. holidays ... hmmm.
Are these and circumcision 'required' for gentiles entering the CHURCH that Jesus founded? Under His New Covenant.
Romans 2:29
No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Colossians 2:16
[ Outward judgements ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Mark 7:14
Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.”
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.”
(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)
20 He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”
Me: I think we do less honor the Lord when we ignore His holy days and yet practice pagan holidays like Halloween or Valentines, or desecrate the Passover with Babylonian traditions.
P2: to say following the Law honours God more than honouring the Spirit of freedom is exactly what is wrong with TO .
P1: A circumcised heart considers these things ...
and gives HONOUR to YHWH our God in all things... if your feasting or fasting is not for your love of Jesus and the rest in YHWH then your actions are lost.
... no matter the public appearances of things.
Me: God did not give us a free will so that we could worship false Gods and ignore him. He gave us free will so that we could be free to choose God and His ways. It does not honor God to choose ways that are opposite of His.
P2: I worship Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Not the OT law nor a license to sin but Christ himself.
Me: "if your feasting or fasting is not for your love of Jesus and the rest in YHWH then your actions are lost."
That is exactly the point. You don't keep God's holy days as an obligation. You do so because you love the Lord and wish to honor Him in keeping of His holy days. How is it honoring to God though, when one worships pagan holy days or practices pagan ways that god says are an abomination to Him? It is the first commandment.
Me: "I worship Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Not the OT law nor a license to sin but Christ himself."
If you love me, keep my commands. didn't Jesus say that?
P1: Worshipping Jesus is not worship of false Gods or ignoring YHWH. When do you consider the New Covenant and what it means? Both to former jews and former gentile pagans?
P2: And what were those commandments Gerald? "To love the Lord with all our hearts ,soul ,strength and mind and to love thy neighbours` as thyself." Those are the commandments that all the Law and the Prophets hang on.If you wish to celebrate feast days by all means do so but do not judge others and find them pagan worshiping desecraters because they do not.
Me: I am not judging others. It appears that I am the one being judged for merely bringing up the fact that we should celebrate Gods Holy days. I do have to question the wisdom of those who would chase after easter eggs and dress their kids up a demons to get candy or other such nonsense has any part in Christian practice. I know many Christians who partake in those ungodly practices and still try to claim they are "following Jesus".
P1: As Paul says and I repeat again:
Colossians 2:16
[ Outward judgements ] Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Me: That freedom is not so that we can go worship false gods and practice their ways and still call ourselves godly. Romans 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Is your argument that we can partake in pagan practices and still call ourselves believers? Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
P2: Gerald the only one bringing up Easter and Halloween is you. All I have said is those who do not follow OT feasts love the Lord as much as those who do. If you view disagreement as judgment so be it. This is a discussion group right? What I`m saying is that you are labeling those who are not TO as partakers in unholy practices without even knowing them. That sounds a lot more like judgment to me.
Me: That was not all you said. First you immediately equated law keeping in regards to my question about keeping Gods Holy days. Then on that straw man proceeded to say the Holy days were not needed, accused me of judging, and labeled me with a TO tag. ON that strawman of labeling me TO you proceed to accuse me of judging by the law. THAT sounds like judgment to me. I bring up Easter and Halloween as support for the case I am making and am accused of judging for that too. What is it you have against God's Holy days that you feel that we should not honor them?
P2: Please re-read my posts.I can see we are not going to be able to reach an amicable disagreement so God bless you.
P1: What do you see Paul saying here Gerald Davis?:
Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
... how does this relate to Jesus and the New Covenant.
... in your understanding of scriptures?
... and what Jesus did for us who are part of His Body.
... as opposed to being Gentile (pagans) or Israelite (law-keepers)
Me: What it is saying is that you are not judged for salvation by a keeping of those things. It does not say that we should not do those things though. Are we to say that since Christ died on the cross we can now steal, covet, lie? Of course not. Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus even said at the last supper, do this in remembrance of me. do what? eat wafers and have a shot of wine? No. they were having Passover. We are to keep Passover in remembrance of Jesus, not chase after easter eggs and eat chocolate bunnies.
Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
If we are dead to disobedience, how can we live any longer in disobedience? We were set free from disobedience so that we could be obedient through the power of the Holy spirit.
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
We now have the ability to be obedient, having been freed from our disobedient nature.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
P1: It seems you are still focused on what Paul is NOT SAYING rather than what Paul is telling us. As most people keen on the LAW focus on ... even those with NO HEBRAIC or jewish roots.
Colossians 2:17
"These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."
... Paul's focus is centered on this, Jesus.
... not on being jewish or alternately practising pagan 'holidays'
... is easter celebrations (holy Thursday, Good Friday, Easter Sunday) about something other than Christ ... in your understanding of the practises of the Church even today?
... because I do not see the 'shadowy' past but only the remembrance of Jesus today. As clearly as seeing that HE is present NOW and forever ... in the church where I worship Him.
Me: the problem you are having is that you are too afraid of "the law" and "being under it". All of the verses I quoted were focused on Jesus, not on law. Your argument seems to say that we are free to disobey God. I say nay, not free to disobey, but set free from disobedience so that we might be able to be obedient unto God through the power of the Holy Spirit sent unto us through our belief in the saving power of Jesus Christ our Lord.
I cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
What is this verse saying? Is this a "new law"? No. Paul is teaching from the old law. God hasn't changed. His standards are not different. You cannot do these things and still call yourself a Christian and expect to be covered.
I know that many in grace like to quote verse 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. But in light of the previous verses, it seems to temper it some. Is it a contradiction to say all things are lawful and yet to have just said that list of people will not enter heaven? Paul also qualifies further: 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. But, I thought Paul said it was lawful? Or did he say fornicators will not enter the kingdom? Our conduct matters. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
Does it glorify God to chase after easter eggs? Does it glorify God to dress up as little demons and go beg for candy? Does it glorify God to hope a fat man in a red suit brings us presents? Does it glorify God to promote that some false god runs around shooting people with love arrows?
Does it dishonor God in any way to recognize His Holy Days?
P1: I always find it amusing when people 'assume' I am having a 'problem' with something Jesus or His disciples are saying ... after quoting EXACTLY what Jesus and his disciples are saying. (Much to the chagrin ... of friends like you ... my friend)
... again, which LAW did Jesus put me under?
... that of HIS New Covenant?
... or that of HIS Old Covenant with my jewish spiritual relatives? (and their forefather of course)
... Gerald Davis?
... does Paul give you any clues or do you have to go to the writer of Hebrews (chapter 8 might help you)
Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he (Jesus) has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Me: It seems the two of you are the ones doing the assuming here. Just at the mere suggestion that we, God forbid , do something the Lord says we should do is somehow going to destroy your relationship to Jesus seems, to me, a bit preposterous. When it comes to something like honoring God on His holy days, you fight tooth and nail against it, arguing that we are not under law, but at the same time, I see christians all over these pages use law when they want to talk about homosexuality being a sin, for example. If the law is done away with, as you say, and we need not follow it, as you say, then how are we to say that anything is sin? You seem to be removing the very foundation for moral conduct right out from underneath us.
Consider Romans 7. Paul starts out how we are dead to the law, but that death is in the penalty of the law. In verse 7 Paul says, What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. The law isn’t the sin, and certainly celebrating God’s Holy Days are not sin. Verse 12 Paul says. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Yet somehow we now esteem the law as a bad thing to be avoided? Nay, v13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. It wasn’t the law that was sin, it was the breaking of the law. The law just brought that to knowledge. Paul goes on in v22 saying, For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: If the law is so bad and to be shunned, why is Paul saying he delights in it? The law does not save, nor did it ever. It is the standard of god though, and should we not strive towards that goal?
P3: Ephesians 5:22-23, says that those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have NO law! Why? When you're led by the Holy Spirit he will lead you to ALL righteousness. So there is no worry about following a particular law or committing sin, because you are being led by the Spirit of God.
P2: The law remains as a tutor to bring unbelievers to Christ.For those who are believers turning back to the law Paul says this "How is it you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things to which you desire to be enslaved all over again.: Gal 1:16 " I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ,for a different gospel." Gal 3:2,3 "Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit,are you now being perfected by the flesh?"
Me: Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. You all act as if the law is against God, and here Paul clearly states that it is not. The assumption and fear people have concerning Holy Days or Sabbath is that it somehow takes them out of grace. God forbid. It is by grace through faith that we are able to act in a righteous manner. Look at what James says : 7 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
What we do is still an integral part of who we are as believers. Celebrating God’s holy days is not done for reason of salvation, but as evidence of salvation. What sort of evidence do we have of our love for God if we are not doing things the Lord has said do and shunning things the Lord has said not to do? Are we showing our faith in God by practicing the rituals of pagans and celebrating mans holidays only, yet ignoring days God has said we should honor? If obedience is not the outcome of faith, isn’t our faith of no account then? A tree is known by its fruit, right?
P3: Galatians 5:22-23, says that those that have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have NO law! Why? When you're led by the Holy Spirit he will lead you to ALL righteousness. So there is no worry about following a particular law or committing sin, because you are being led by the Spirit of God.
Me: Ok, go back a couple verses, 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions,
heresies,
21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell
you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such
things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
P3: Those laws that God gave Moses were only for the nation of Israel! It was not for Gentiles! Therefore, Gentiles NEVER were given the Law to follow. The end of the LAW is Jesus! Since the end of the LAW is Jesus, what does Jesus say about what we as Christians are suppose to do? Jesus said nothing about us following the Law of Moses. If you read and study Acts 15, you will find that the Gentiles were instructed by the apostles not to follow the Law of Moses!
Me: So, then, by your reckoning, is it ok to murder someone? Is it ok then to defraud someone? It is still wrong to be a fornicator or an idolator. When Cain slew his brother Abel, it was still a sin, even without the law of Moses. We still, even after acts 15, see Paul writing to the gentile churches with lists of things that will exclude you from entering the kingdom.
What says these verses? Eph 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are not saved by works, but created in Christ jesus UNTO
good works. We were set free from the
penalty of the law not so we could disobey, but so that through Jesus we can
walk in them. We are not justified by
works, but are justified so that we may do good works.
P2: it is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation with you when you ignore the position of the other party even when you have been corrected more than once. Those who are under the NT covenant of grace are not the lawless,pagan rabble- rousers that you keep painting them to be.Until you can acknowledge that there`s not much point in trying to discuss this with you.
Me: By “reasonable conversation” do you mean that I have to agree with you? IF you had been paying attention to what I am posting, you would see I am not calling grace lawlessness. IF you had been paying attention you would have seen how several times now I have said that we are saved by grace. But, we are not saved by grace to do any old thing we want. 1 Corinthians 6:20
P2: it is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation with you when you ignore the position of the other party even when you have been corrected more than once. Those who are under the NT covenant of grace are not the lawless,pagan rabble- rousers that you keep painting them to be.Until you can acknowledge that there`s not much point in trying to discuss this with you.
Me: By “reasonable conversation” do you mean that I have to agree with you? IF you had been paying attention to what I am posting, you would see I am not calling grace lawlessness. IF you had been paying attention you would have seen how several times now I have said that we are saved by grace. But, we are not saved by grace to do any old thing we want. 1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought
with a price: therefore glorify
God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
As I just showed in Ephesians 2:10, we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, not FROM good works.
In 2 Cor 10: 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Again I also refer back to the verses in james I posted, faith without works is dead. Our lives should be a living witness of the Lord, and that is done not through doing ungodly things, but by doing things that are righteous. And we do not do those things of our own power, or we would have someplace to boast about, but it is through the power of God living in us and through us that we are to be submitted to. Again as it says in James, it is not grace alone, or works alone, but the two working together.
As I just showed in Ephesians 2:10, we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works, not FROM good works.
In 2 Cor 10: 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Again I also refer back to the verses in james I posted, faith without works is dead. Our lives should be a living witness of the Lord, and that is done not through doing ungodly things, but by doing things that are righteous. And we do not do those things of our own power, or we would have someplace to boast about, but it is through the power of God living in us and through us that we are to be submitted to. Again as it says in James, it is not grace alone, or works alone, but the two working together.
P3: you have to follow and listen to Jesus not Moses! How hard is that? Is it asking too much to listen to Jesus? Moses said thou shall not commit adultery! Jesus said, "you have heard of them from old thou shall not commit adultery, but I say, he that looks on a woman and lusts thereafter hath committed adultery in his heart already." So the Law of Christ is much deeper and powerful than the Law given by Moses. Why? The law of Christ purpose is to eradicate (pull sin up from its root) sin. That was not the purpose of the Law of Moses! The law that Moses was to identify sin, and to keep one from sin. Even then gentiles did not have the Law of Moses! That why when Jesus appeared, the Gentiles were not taught the Law, but were taught Jesus! Why? Jesus is the end of the Law! That is, the Law leads you to the teacher Jesus Christ! The tutor teaches you what the teacher is teaching until understanding. Then the student learns from the teacher!
Me: Did you bother even reading what I said? The scriptures I quoted? Have I once advocated following Moses? When you mention Jesus teaching on one of the commandments, did Jesus say, never mind that one? No. He established it. Not only did he establish it, he made it even greater in establishment by applying it to the thought life and not just the actual physical act. And what does scriptures say of the gentiles? For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:14. Why? 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) God has written it upon our hearts so that we are without excuse. Now that we know that the law of God is written on our hearts, that we were set free from sin to do good works because we were bought with a price and are to subject ourselves to the will of God, that we know that faith without works is dead, why is it such a hard thing to step away from worldy pagan holy days and rituals, and do the ones God has called us to do?
2 Corinthians 6:
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath
he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye
are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and
walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate,
saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and
daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
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