Conversation on the Free Gift

The following is a conversation I had in a group concerning the free gift of salvation.  I post this just as an example of how hard it can be to witness to others, especially those who have made up their minds that there is no God.  The unbelievers just cannot seem to grasp the concept of a free gift, and in the end, reject what that free gift is, Jesus Christ, the son of the living god who laid down His life substitutionally to pay the penalty of death that was meant for us; who then arose on the third day, defeating death and giving the path to reconciliation with God and eternal life through Him.
BP:  I think it's extremely sad that those people who have faith in God don't have enough faith in him to believe that he would be fair. That is, he wouldn't give a damn whether you believed any of these high drama stories about him. He would only care about one thing - did you do your best to live your life the best way you knew how. Why is that so hard to believe?
JS:  BP, I don't know how much more fair God could be. He offers a free gift of forgiveness and eternal life for whoever wants to accept it. There are no conditions attached to it. You can't work to attain it because it's free.

HH: Um, there are conditions

HH:  If it were free you would get it without doing anything or having to agree to anything. 'Agreeing' is, in fact, a condition.

Jeremiah Spotter:   You can't do anything to get it.

HH: You just said you have to accept it.

HH:  I think the problem is, the idea of saying it is without conditions, is what you want it to be, but real examination shows that this idea doesn't apply.

Jeremiah Spotter:   That's not doing anything. You can always say, no thank you, though.

HH;  Hello, that is a condition

HH: What if you just say nothing? Do you just receive it?

Jeremiah Spotter:   Hello, no it isn't. That is rejection.

HH: So everyone gets it then?

Jeremiah Spotter: It's available to everyone.

HH:  Answer my question

Jeremiah Spotter:  I just did

HH:  No, you responded, you did not answer. If you say nothing, you get it, yes or no.

Jeremiah Spotter:   A gift does nothing for you if you just let it sit there.

HH:  So you aren't going to answer, then?

Jeremiah Spotter:   I just did

HH:  If it just sits there, you still have it.

HH:  The giver does not get to decide what you do with a gift once they give it to you, do they?

HH:  "Jeremiah Spotter I just did"
The question needs a 'yes' or 'no'-only response.

Jeremiah Spotter :If you just let it sit there and say nothing, it has not transferrred posession and they can do what they want with it.

HH: So, teh answer is actually 'no', then. It's not a free gift. It's conditional.

HH:  It has not transferred possession', that's a pretty poor effort.

Jeremiah Spotter :  No, it is unconditional. Someone rejecting it is not a condition. It is a choice by the preson who it is offered to.

HH:  'Someone rejecting it' means a condition is that it must be deliberately accepted.

HH:  From your own posts it MUST be chosen. That's not free. You must agree to something.

HH:  .. and since we all know its really a whole shitload of things one must agree to, this argument was never really going far ;)

GA:  Free burgers at Burger king! !! All you have to do is accept your free burger with no strings attached. Failure to accept free burgers will result in the kidnap and murder of your children. Free burgers!!!

HH:  Essentially, this 'free unconditional gift' is really like a zero-money-down car ad which also has a twice-speed verbal disclaimer at the end read over a huge paragraph of text which is of a font size too small to read on any television.

 

Jeremiah Spotter:   You can do a whole shitload of things, hammer, but that does not get you the free gift.

HH:  I should already have a free gift

HH:  One generally doesn't work for a gift. One works for a reward.

Jeremiah Spotter:   Exactly. there is nothing one can do to earn a free gift.

HH:  facepalm

HH: Subtlety is lost on you, isn't it?

BP: Why is this even being discussed Jeremiah? We all know that in order to receive the gift of forgiveness we have to accept Jesus Christ as the son of God who was sacrificed on the cross to pay for our sins. That is most definitely a condition.

BP:  I think we have to say we believe he was born of a virgin too. That's real important.

Jeremiah Spotter:   Bob, those are facts, not conditions.

HH:  Facts exist independent of our acceptance.

Jeremiah Spotter:   exactly

HH:  Therefore we don't need to accept them to get this free gift

HH:  BOOYAH

Jeremiah Spotter:   You don't need to accept it for the gift to be real, but if you don't even believe the gift exists, how can you recieve the benefits thereof?

HH: If it were real it would affect me regardless.

Jeremiah Spotter: It most definitely does effect you, either way.

HH:  Then I don't need to say anything. I already get the benefits. There is no 'either way' involved in a 'free gift'.

Jeremiah Spotter:   You could ignore it.

HH:  Im not sure why you keep trying to argue it, I QED'd this one for like the third time 7 posts ago

Jeremiah Spotter:   If that's what you feel you did....

HH: More than a feeliiiiiiiiiiiiiiin'...

BP:   If my grandma gave me a birthday gift, she doesn't say but you can't have it unless you first pinky swear that you know without any doubt that your grandpa worked his fingers to the bone to pay for this gift. She just gives it to me.  If I have to pinky swear then that's a condition. And it's an unacceptable one because I have to swear that I know something that I don't. I might believe it's true if she says so but since I didn't witness him doing that, she's demanding that I lie to receive my gift. That's immoral.

Jeremiah Spotter:   If your grandma gives you a gift, but you don't believe the gift exists, then you do not get the use of the gift. It just sits there. If you ignore it, you don’t get the benefits of the gift, it just sits there. The third option is to happily receive the gift, give thanks to grandma, open it up and enjoy the gift to its fullest. receiving it is not a condition because the gift has already been given.

GA:  Does god know the difference between reluctant acceptance of him and the sort of "happy-clappy-glazed-eyed-furiously-masturbating-while-shouting-god-forgive-me" acceptance of him?

HH:  "It just sits there"
HH: Again, the giver has no control over what someone does with a gift they receive. Secondly, 'forgiveness' cannot simply 'sit there'. Using a physical gift as your analogy isn't valid. It's God's personal feeling to forgive, and if its a free gift he'll just do it.

BP:  I don't know why you keep arguing about it Jeremiah. The gift is conditional and no amount of weasel wording or spin doctoring is going to convince anybody otherwise.

HH:  ^ true story

Jeremiah Spotter:   Heathen, He did just do it. People just refuse to believe it. As you concede, the giver has no control over what the receiver does with a gift given. The forgiveness is there, just ignored or disbelieved.

HH: I cannot disbelieve in something someone else feels. That makes no sense, as I've already pointed out.

HH:  If he feels it, he fells it, and I already have it regardless of what I believe.
Seriously man, you lost this argument long ago, let it be.

Jeremiah Spotter:   Bob, there are no conditions. You not believing what is said about the gift does not change what it is. When Jesus said, it is finished, that is what he meant. the gift was given.

HH:  When Jesus said 'it is finished', he meant his life, and he died.

o    When Jesus said 'it is finished', he meant his life, and he died. People don't get all metaphorical when their guts are hanging around their knees.

Unless it's a Tarantino film.

GA: He gave the gift already? ?? The gullible twat. That means I can deny him and still get into heaven with Andy Williams...oh, fuck that.

Jeremiah Spotter: If you reject the gift, you don't get the benefits thereof.  Thus, you can spend you eternity separated from Andy Williams.

GA:  I've taken the gift but then decided to deny him. Brilliant eh?

Jeremiah Spotter:  If you throw the gift away, you no longer possess it. Right?

GA:  I'm not throwing the gift away. I'm keeping it but denying Jesus.

Jeremiah Spotter:  Jesus IS the gift. Deny Jesus, you deny the gift.

HH: "Jeremiah Spotter If you reject the gift, you don't get the benefits thereof."

Im not rejecting it, Im saying nothing. Since you never answered that question I still get the gift. It's free and unconditional, after all.

Jeremiah Spotter:  and it sits there useless, and you do not get to enjoy the benefits of it.

HH:  I don't want Jesus as a gift, I have dogs. And besides in my country its unethical to give another person as a gift.

GA:  So I can accept the gift then when I get into heaven I can call him a dick?

Jeremiah Spotter:  It is finished. Meaning I am done with the conversation.

HH:  "Jeremiah Spotter It is finished. Meaning I am done with the conversation."

Thank Gods.